In a world that seems to value ‘faster, quicker, louder’, are you an introvert struggling to keep up? Feeling drained and over-stimulated by these high-energy, extroverted interactions, do you exhaust yourself more by pretending to be something you’re not?
You’re not alone, and you’re not imagining the pressure that you feel in the workplace to step up, be the leader and contribute to the conversation. My guest today tackles this bias towards extroversion in the business world.
Joanna Rawbone, the founder of ‘Flourishing Introverts’, talks introversion and how to OWN IT! She gives some tips and techniques on how the introvert can play to their strengths, in order for everyone to make their contribution and bring value for the diversity they bring.
[00.59] How Joanna discovered that she was an introvert, and ultimately broke free from the pretence of being someone she wasn’t.
[02.56] How introverts can learn to cope in a work environment by ensuring that they have plenty of opportunities to replenish before going out into the ‘big extrovert world.’
[03.59] Joanna teaches a quick method to replenish and re-energise.
[05.39] Beyond the many stereotypes of extrovert and introvert – the actual characteristics are:
Introvert vs Extrovert
- Introverts are typically those people who are energized by their internal world of thoughts, ideas and reflection.
- Extroverts are energized by active experience, interaction and change.
There is a small minority of people who genuinely are ambivert (a bit extravert, a bit introvert), but mostly people are either/or – extroverts with access to introvert behaviours or introverts with access to extrovert behaviours.
- Introverts have a think / say / think process
- Extroverts have a say / think / say process
[08.50] How you can leverage your strength as an introvert and work towards actively participating when needed in the workplace.
[11.11] Ways that extroverts can change the way they handle the workplace in order to better accommodate the introverts.
[12.33] How to prevent decisions made in meetings changing once introverts have had time to think about it.
[14.45] In Joanna’s TEDx talk she speaks about the most obvious business practices that are biased and the resulting negative consequences. She extrapolates here.
[18.35] The three stage process that corporates can implement to tackle the bias.
[23.53] The three practices of the Flourishing Introvert philosophies
- Ownership (claiming and owning your introversion)
- Creating a supportive environment (so as not to get depleted)
- Looking after it (build in time to replenish, and understand the situations that will drain your batteries)
As Joanna says “it’s not about hiding inside introversion.” Once you’ve identified and owned it, you can act towards your strengths, and when you’re ready, step out beyond it. “It’s about pushing the comfort zone boundaries so that your comfort zone becomes wider and larger and bigger and broader.”
There is a place for everybody, and both sides (introverts and extroverts) need to value the strengths and the differences that each side brings because there are so many benefits to be had by genuinely appreciating and valuing the neurodiversity!
Learn more about Joanna
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Quotes from this episode
“Otherwise what happens is introverts, like me, have lots of great ideas but there’s never space in the conversation to air them, because the conversations is moving on too quickly’’ – Joanna Rawbone
“People still mistake shyness, depression, social anxiety, they conflate that with introversion, but extraverts experience those things too, so that’s not the same as introversion” – Joanna Rawbone
Lisa Linfield: 00:21 Hello everybody, and welcome to today’s episode of Working Women’s Wealth. I’m joined by Joanna Rawbone, who is the founder of [Cintilo 00:00:31], a corporate training and team development business, and more recently flourishing introverts. Her vision is to tackle the bias towards extroversion in the business world, so that everyone, introvert and extrovert, can make their contribution, play to their strengths and feel valued for the diversity that they bring. Welcome Joanna, and thank you for joining us.
Joanna Rawbone: 00:57 Thank you for having me here.
Lisa Linfield: 00:59 So, when did you discover that you were an introvert and how did naming it change how you saw yourself?
Joanna Rawbone: 01:08 That’s a really great question because I always knew as a very young child that I was different. So, I would take myself to bed early, to read for instance, before lights out. I was more of a stay home body rather than a big play noisily, play loudly person. But it wasn’t actually until my 30s that I realized that there was a kind of explanation for why I was different. And that was when I first did the Myers Briggs type indicator and found out I was an introvert, and all of a sudden everything fell into place. Because I know some people take those tests and feel like they’ve been boxed, that wasn’t my experience at all. My experience was, [aha 00:01:49], I’m okay then. I’m not odd. I’m actually normal. Just a different type of normal.
Lisa Linfield: 01:55 And so how did it change the way you interacted with other people?
Joanna Rawbone: 02:01 Initially, ironically, it didn’t because once I realized that was me, I looked around at all the other people in my sphere, my work colleagues, and they were all extroverts. And so to begin with, what I did was I started to behave more like an extrovert, thinking that was what was needed. And it was actually much, much later that I realized the cost that was taking on me, the toll it was taking, to pretend to be an extrovert. I could almost watch my batteries draining as I was out there putting on a show, kind of performing. And it’s only been much more recently that I’ve been bold enough, I suppose, to say I’m an introvert and I’m proudly an introvert. So, quit with the pretending, let’s just play to my strengths and really shine as the introvert I know I can be.
Lisa Linfield: 02:56 How do you manage the extroverts around you and how do you manage this journey of balance between being yourself, but needing to rise up in a work situation?
Joanna Rawbone: 03:07 Yes. So, the fundamental thing for introverts is because they typically prefer to, need to, recharge their batteries, either on their own or at least quietly doing something that they find kind of quietly replenishing. One of the things that’s important for me in order to survive in this extroverted world is to make sure I have plenty of opportunities to replenish. Now, obviously weekends are a big replenishing time for me. I run my own business, so evenings often aren’t about replenishing, they’re still about working. Ironically though, if I’m doing kind of officey stuff, then I’m on my own. That’s replenishing, that’s okay.
But it’s about being fully replenished before I go into the big extrovert world. Making sure that I replenish again afterwards and I’ve developed my own little toolkit of quick methods to replenish during the day. So, if I’m going meeting to meeting and I can feel my battery’s draining, I have a couple of quick techniques that will help me recharge on the go. You know like there’s many battery packs you get for your phone that give you a couple of extra hours of juice? It kind of works like that. So, I just have a couple of techniques that mean that I reenergize myself just for the next little bit.
It’s a very conscious process. So, if I feel my battery is draining, one of the things that I will do will be literally to take myself out of whatever situation if possible and just walk a bit. Now sometimes I can get outside, sometimes I can’t. Even if it’s just walk up and down stairs, just being on my own and moving, I’m a very kinesthetic person. Moving is a great way for me to recharge my batteries. If I can listen to a bit of music, I’ll definitely listen to music. And ironically for me it’s dance music. You’d think it was going to be something calming and soothing. But no, it’s dance music for me. Back to the kinesthetic, I’m a big dancer. So, anything that just… I almost can’t help myself but move I find energizes me. And there’s a few others as well.
Lisa Linfield: 05:15 I think there’s wonderful, I have a playlist on my phone that’s called Psych Up and it’s all the kind of dancing songs that get me going.
Joanna Rawbone: 05:23 Absolutely. Very similar. Very similar. And I have this amazing knack of, even if I’m somewhere quiet, I can hear the music in my head anyway, so I don’t necessarily need it. I can feel myself almost dancing in my seat as I hear the music in my head.
Lisa Linfield: 05:38 That’s wonderful. So, there are so many stereotypes of introvert and extrovert. What actually are the characteristics of these two creatures? And is it an either or, or is there a spectrum?
Joanna Rawbone: 05:51 From a basic introvert extrovert, for me that is an either or. There is a small minority of people who could be either, and I’ll talk a bit about those. But introverts are typically those people who are energized by their internal world of thoughts, ideas, reflection. So, they are already overstimulated mentally, which is why they can get drained when they’re out in a big stimulating environment, because they were already overstimulated. It literally gets too much.
Extroverts on the other hand, need active experience, interaction and change in order to be energized. So, introverts and extroverts are energized by quite different things. Now, recently there’s been a number of people saying, I am an ambivert, meaning I’m a bit introvert, a bit extrovert. That’s where the spectrum bit comes in, in a way, because the needs of one thing, the behaviors that overlay on the top of that, are where the spectrum sits. So, there’s a very small percentage of the population who are genuinely ambivert, so recharged equally in that kind of solo way or in the busy environment. Most of us are either an introvert who has access to a number of extrovert behaviors or an extrovert who has access to a number of introvert behaviors.
And that’s where the confusion around ambivert came in and why it’s important for people to actually know what is the basic need. Is it the recharging alone or is it the recharging in a busy environment? The other difference is that typically introverts have a think, say, think process. So, when you ask them a question, expect a pause, expect a bit of quiet while they literally take time to think about their response. Extroverts on the other hand, are say, think, say. So, it’s like a stream of consciousness. They don’t even know what they’re thinking until they’ve said it. I had a friend who almost leapt backwards when he said something as if to say, I didn’t even know I was thinking that. So, our communication processes are also different, but the behaviors overlay on top of each of those.
Lisa Linfield: 08:04 That’s where the challenge comes because is the definition of introvert the energy replenishment or is it the say, think, say, think, say, think?
Joanna Rawbone: 08:13 It’s the energy replenishment. And what most often happens is the communication process goes along with that. There are a few exceptions and the type of introvert. Because there are six types of introverts. One of them very definitely would appear more like an extrovert, so their communication can be more say, think, say. And that would be either the dynamic or probably the engaging introvert, who are able just to free flow with conversation and communicate without necessarily reverting to that think, say, think process.
Lisa Linfield: 08:51 So, how does an introvert both leverage their strengths as an introvert and work towards being able to actively participate when needed in the workplace?
Joanna Rawbone: 09:04 That’s a really great question actually. I think, for me, the first thing is that an introvert really needs to identify, own and act from their strengths. Most of us as introverts have taken so many knocks that we’ve begun to feel we don’t have any strengths. Because organizations are constantly looking for the fast responders, those who speak up quickly, those who can jump into problem solving. None of which appear to be introvert strengths. So, the first thing is to pull back a bit and identify what your personal strengths are as an introvert and then really claim and respond from those.
So, if I, for instance, know I’m going into a problem solving meeting, I will actively ask for the information ahead of time, so that I’ve started my own creative process going. A skilled facilitator will make sure that then my thought through creativity is explored along with the spontaneous in the moment creativity. But it does require somebody who’s a good facilitator to pull that out. Otherwise what happens is introverts like me have lots of great ideas, but there’s never space in the conversation to air them because the conversation is moving on too quickly. So, it’s about thinking things through, being really clear on what’s expected of me in a meeting. Am I expected to make a decision, in which case I’ll think through that quite clearly as well.
And I’ve also learned some really good flagging techniques as an introvert, which helps me here. So, if I’m asked a question rather than going quiet while I’m thinking of the answer, and you may have heard me do this already, I’ll say something like, that’s a really great question. And there’s possibly a number of responses to that. So, I’m using air time, so what I’m doing is I’m actually preframing in a way what I’m going to be doing, in order to give myself response time. So, rather than just the dead air time, which is then when people jump in and assume you don’t have anything to say. That’s the time to actually use that, but my mind is desperately going, right, what’s my answer here? And that works for me.
Lisa Linfield: 11:12 How can the extroverts change the way they handle meetings or handle the workplace in order to better accommodate the introverts?
Joanna Rawbone: 11:24 I think there’s a number of things that are really important here. One is to accept that, for instance, the thought through ideas or thought through creativity is as valuable as the in the moment stuff. Because in my experience, and I’ve spent way too many years in business now, the quick in the moment, creativity, problem solving will often fix the presenting issue, but not the root cause.
So, we still have to go back and readdress the root cause. If extroverts value the difference and respect that actually what the introvert can bring is that longer term, kind of real deep dive into stuff, what they’ll see is that maybe there’s a saving to be had in terms of rework, in terms of waste. So, it’s about valuing the difference. But I have to say it’s the same for introverts. It’s very easy for… And I’m a member of some groups where I see this happen. It’s very easy for introverts to point the finger at extroverts and blame them and almost assume they’re wrong, whereas actually both sides need to value the difference and the strengths that each side bring.
Lisa Linfield: 12:32 I struggle often with this concept, in the sense that if you’re going into a meeting and you have an hour to make that decision…
Joanna Rawbone: 12:42 Yeah.
Lisa Linfield: 12:43 And you go into the meeting, you have hour to make the decision, everyone comes to the meeting and the expectation is the decision, and you leave thinking it’s all agreed. And then the introverts have time to think and then this whole corridor conversation goes on and basically the meeting gets unagreed, that you’ve already decided upon. How do we try and prevent that? Because [inaudible 00:13:08] in her book talks about backdoor chatting, and as a negative thing. So, I totally get when there is that whole thing, where everyone’s smiles on one side of their face and then walks out and kind of does something else. But I also think that there’s the grain of a real challenge of the introverts only coming up with their responses afterwards.
Joanna Rawbone: 13:29 Yeah. And there’s several things that help here. One is definitely to have a meeting pack, so if there is an important decision to be made, give as much information as you can ahead of time. Unfortunately, I’ve attended way too many meetings where it’s sprung on you and we’re still expected to make a decision in the hour, which is unlikely then to be able to pull in the expertise of the introvert.
I know it’s not always possible, but as many times as possible, have really clearly well thought through agenda, have meeting packs sent out ahead of time. The extroverts probably won’t read it because they don’t need to. The introvert probably will because they know that they’ll be able to contribute more through the meeting if they’ve done their prep, if they’ve done their pre-work. So, I think those reading packs are really important. The other thing that really helps is to say, “Okay, we’re going to have 40 minutes to explore the ideas. Then we’re going to take a quick coffee break. Then we’re going to come back for 10 minutes for the decision making.” So, build in deliberately a bit of extra time. There’s usually nothing that won’t wait an extra 10 or 20 minutes just to allow the introverts to do their reflecting.
Lisa Linfield: 14:41 That’s fantastic. I’ve never thought of that as a solution. So, you recently gave a talk at TEDx in Folkston on the topic where you spoke about the most obvious business practices that are biased. That probably most extroverts don’t even realize are biased. And what the negative consequences of these practices are. What are these most common biases that businesses have?
Joanna Rawbone: 15:08 I think, probably the most obvious is assessment centers. So, assessment centers, whether it’s for a new job, a promotion, a special project, whatever it happens to be. What they’re looking for typically is that say, think, say process. They’re looking for people to step up, to be the leader, in their terms, and to kind of really contribute a lot. In fact, some of the organizations I work with, the assessors there, have admitted to me that they marked down people who don’t contribute very much. So, what they’re doing technically is discriminating against introverts if that’s their only assessment. More sophisticated assessors will build into the assessment process a reflective task after the group discussion. So, where the extroverts typically shine in the group discussion and introvert will typically shine when what they’re asked to do is to reflect on, assimilate ideas and produce a quick report. And the introvert will pull things into that that a lot of extroverts won’t even have noticed.
Now that gives a more fair and balanced assessment process, which can only be good for an organization in the long term. There’s the problem solving meetings, that I’ve already mentioned, that are another classic. Because, especially, with the thinking aloud processes that are making resurgence again at the moment, that plays straight into the hands of an extrovert as well. Giving that time before the meeting, so that the introverts can get their creative juices flowing, is really important.
Training courses is another classic. How many of us have sat through training courses, or sat down at the beginning of the training course or a meeting, when someone says, “Right, we’re going to do a round of introductions.” And ironically it makes the heart of many introverts sink because they don’t necessarily like talking about themselves. Now we have to learn how to do that, but what works against it is, what I call the creeping death of introductions, where the chair says that’s what we’re going to do. We move to the left and then work all the way around the table until we get to their right. Far better that we say, “We’re going to do some quick introductions. This is what we want to hear.” And allow people to make their own decision about when they put their voice in the room. That soothes and calms the introverts a lot because they’re in control of something now. And that really quite matters.
And probably the last [biggie 00:17:32], open plan offices. Nightmare, they’re a minefield that introverts find so hard to navigate. Because again, it’s that busy, noisy, loud environment where there are lots of distractions. And bearing in mind we’ve got such a knowledge economy these days. Introverts batteries are probably draining the whole time in that busy, noisy, loud environment. So, they’re not able to do their best work. And that’s a real problem. I understand the commercial driver behind open plan offices, but with a bit of thought, it would be very easy to have little spaces where introverts can go just to recharge. Where there are little pods, where people have a bit of privacy. Some organizations allow people to wear headphones, that annoys some in terms of they’re not contactable. So, it’s about being respectful of the difference in the neurodiversity.
Lisa Linfield: 18:28 How do you work with corporates to help them to leverage the diversity of introverts? What can corporate actually do and how do you help them do it?
Joanna Rawbone: 18:39 I have a three stage process for corporates, and more and more of them are asking me to advise them on this now. It starts with an audit, and especially for HR professionals, managers, leaders, that’s where it should start. Let’s have a look at what practices are typically favored towards extroversion. And before that even, let’s look at an individual level. What do I do that shows a bias towards extroversion? Who do I turn to? Who do I favor? Who do I overlook? Who do I assume doesn’t have anything to say because I haven’t made space for them in a conversation? So, the audit is two fold, it’s looking at the individual, or the individual looking at themselves, I should say. And it’s then turning the attention on the business practices to say, which already provide a level playing field and which need a bit of groundwork to level them up? So, that’s stage one.
Stage two is, having identified what the situation is, what needs to change? So, it’s an edit phase. Audit to begin with, then edit. What needs changing? And that starts with the individual and also then focuses on that business practice. I’m working with some organizations now on their assessment processes, and recruitment actually, to make sure that they’re not discriminating at that early level. At this edit stage as well, it’s about running education programs within the organization, helping people honestly value diversity. Because so many organizations are focused on the diversity and inclusion agenda, so age, gender, race, disability, ethnicity, those things. But what we don’t do necessarily is really appreciate the diversity in neurodiversity. So, inclusion isn’t true inclusion. Educating the employees is an important part of that, so that we really value that diversity, understand it and value it.
Then the third stage is about holding the gains. Because the gains that they will experience are around wellbeing, employee engagement, reduced staff turnover, and obviously reduced sick leave. So, there are many benefits to be had by actually genuinely appreciating and valuing this neurodiversity.
Lisa Linfield: 21:00 What resistance do you get from people when you’re an introvert, when you go into organizations and try and do all of this? What are the things that people say to you? What is the resistance?
Joanna Rawbone: 21:13 The first thing that they often say is, “Oh, come on Jo, get real.” Which really just flags to me how fixed they are in their bias towards extroversion. They’re typically stereotyping, and I suppose using the myths around introversion, that introverts are slow, boring, depressed, dull, all of those kinds of labels. When actually that couldn’t be further from the truth. We may be quiet, but we’re not necessarily any of those things. People still mistake shyness, depression, social anxiety, they conflate that with introversion. But extroverts experience those things too. So, that’s not the same as introversion. There are labels and there’s this drive for faster, quicker, louder that’s on at the moment. That’s the tension, I suppose, I experience in organizations because what I’m getting them to do is think about slowing down, so that actually they can go fast later on.
Lisa Linfield: 22:11 So, in order to kind of create awareness and to help organizations change, you established Flourishing Introverts. What does that mean?
Joanna Rawbone: 22:22 So, Flourishing Introverts are introverts who know they’re capable of much more, who are ready to step up, but without pretending to be something they’re not. I’m working on programs for individual introverts to help them to really start to shine, to start to live into those strengths and qualities that organizations, and in fact communities, desperately need and they need more of. Rather than apologizing, rather than stepping back and thinking there’s something wrong. And Flourishing is a process, it’s not an end result. And it comes about from an authentic life really.
Any introvert can choose to flourish, and I have to say many choose not to. And that’s okay. If they want to stay where they are, this isn’t a kind of you must flourish thing. But there are plenty of introverts who are actually ready and wanting to be noticed, but not in a showy way, in a really respectful, dignified way. And that’s what Flourishing Introverts is all about. It’s not about hiding inside introversion, it’s around stepping out beyond it. It’s about pushing the comfort zone boundaries, so that your comfort zone as an introvert becomes wider and larger and bigger and broader. Stepping outside can be a bit scary, but, hey, we can all push those boundaries and I encourage the introverts who are ready to flourish to really push those boundaries.
Lisa Linfield: 23:52 So, the Flourishing Introvert philosophy basically has three practices. What are those?
Joanna Rawbone: 23:58 The first one is ownership, and doesn’t surprise you, we’ve talked about that a bit in terms of really claiming and owning your introversion. And I used to call them superpowers, but do you know what? That feels a bit too much like extrovert type behavior. And then I came across this group that talks about introverts as being [innies 00:24:16], and I thought, oh, that’s it. They’re [innie 00:24:19] powers actually, rather than superpowers. So, the first thing is to really own our introvert strengths. To see them as the strengths they are and find a way to communicate that, to find a way to in performance reviews, in meetings, in interviews, to really be able to communicate those and sell those introvert strengths. So, that’s the first part.
The second part is to make sure that we’ve put in place around us a supportive environment that enables us to really manage our boundaries, to ensure that we have the replenishing time, so that we’re not constantly depleted. Because depleted or the drained battery type introvert is not a great place to be. So, we need to make sure that we’ve got the right environment around us. And of course we co-create that environment and that’s so important.
And then the third thing is around, once we’ve owned it, we then shape it with the environment, is then minding it, is looking after it. So, making sure that we build in time to replenish, to recharge our batteries. Understanding the typical situations that will drain our batteries. And it’s not about avoiding those situations, but it’s about being ready for them. Imagine an introvert at a networking event. Well, that’s if they show up in the first place, because they can be horrible places for introverts. But again, if I’m suitably recharged, if I’ve gone in there with a purpose. Most people forget that networking is networking, not [netlurking 00:25:49]. So, let me have a purpose for going to the networking event. Who do I want to meet? Who do I want to have a conversation with? What are my six or seven conversation starters that are linked to current affairs or the person I want to talk to? And then when I’m done, I can leave, and go back to replenishing again. This is about just upping myself awareness, so that I’m able to cope authentically in our typical environment.
Lisa Linfield: 26:18 So, in [La La Land 00:00:26:18], where everything works out perfectly, what would Flourishing Introverts become over time?
Joanna Rawbone: 26:27 Flourishing Introverts will become confident leaders who help everyone, not just other introverts, but help everyone, be themselves. So, Flourishing Introverts are people who recognize their own strengths, help other recognize their own strengths and help everyone play to their strengths. I’m really kind of key about that. And it’s about making best use of our resources, rather than living in this kind of lack mentality of I don’t have this or I don’t have that. It’s about saying what I do have and it doesn’t feel, so La La to me anymore. Do you know what? In the beginning of my journey on this, I would have said that was many years away, but the progress we’re making is rapid already. So, I wouldn’t even call it La La Land anymore.
Lisa Linfield: 27:18 I think that’s wonderful. I must say, I find that even in my own goal, when I first set a goal to teach a million women about money, it felt something that was very, very far off in La La Land. And then I’m two years into it and it doesn’t feel as far off in La La Land as it did when I first started, you know?
Joanna Rawbone: 27:35 Absolutely. Yeah. I can well imagine that.
Lisa Linfield: 27:38 So, how do people learn more about you and about the work that you do to help support the introverts?
Joanna Rawbone: 27:46 There’s two key resources. One is if you go to my website, which is flourishingintroverts.com, you’ll see the ways I work with people there. You’ll see my blogs, which I call my musings, and they’re typically really helpful for people. On that front page you’ll also get a link to my TEDx talk, and people are giving me feedback about how useful they found it and how they’re sharing it now with their HR departments and their managers and leaders. So, I would absolutely encourage people to do that.
And also on that front page is a link to the quiz I’ve created that helps people understand the type of introvert they are. Because remember there are six types, we don’t all behave the same. The classic introvert is the one that we probably most recognize as a stereotypical introvert. But the other five types, on the surface, behave like extroverts. So, then it can be a surprise when we realize they need to recharge on their own. You can take that quiz from a button on that front page, find out what type of introvert you are, and that’s the starting ground for owning your own introversion.
Lisa Linfield: 28:59 Well, Jo, thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us, and for not only sharing your experience, but also educating us in terms of these biases that I don’t think most people even have a clue are in the workplace. And doing it in such a gentle and gracious way. So, thank you.
Joanna Rawbone: 29:16 Thank you very much.
Lisa Linfield: 29:17 That was Joanna Rawbone and I just loved learning from her because I’ve done her test, her quiz, because I’m quizzy by nature and I wanted to find out what I was. And I know that I’m one of those confused introverts, or one of the types of introverts, because I recharge by myself. But I also am pretty extrovert in many of my ways, especially in meetings and the way I think. So, it was fascinating to do both the quiz and also just to learn and just to be more mindful of processes where you might be putting introverts at a disadvantage.
This is part of our series on change and looking to help ourselves to live our best life possible. Because your best life and my best life are completely different. But the opportunity for each of us is to be authentic, to ourselves, to our path, and to the sense we have deep within ourselves that there is more to us and there is more that we want to do, to, as Jo would call it, flourish. Because each one of us should be living our best lives.
So, if you are wanting to make some changes, I’ve put a free download together on making change stick. So, head off to the website, workingwomenswealth.com, and you can get that download easily. And put in place some of the things that I’ve learned through my hundred and something different podcast episodes, on how the best ways are to make change stick. Take care, have a great week. And don’t forget you have to be brave in order to be free. I’m Lisa Linfield and this is Working Women’s Wealth.