In the workplace, do you feel able to engage in courageous conversations, allowing yourself to be vulnerable? Or do you ‘armour up’, afraid to appear weak?
Vulnerability is being able to connect with people on an emotional level. It takes courage. Courage is a necessary leadership skill.
And, it turns out that you can LEARN to be courageous!
My guest today went all the way to the USA to find out how. After studying with Brené Brown to become a Dare to Lead facilitator, Kim Potgieter talks about self-awareness, the importance of having clear values, the risks of people pleasing at the expense of your own authenticity and how to create a culture of courage in an organisation.
- [00.55] Kim talks about what made her travel across the world to study with Brené Brown.
- [02.09] The biggest target audience for the course is how to use all of her work in a business environment. As Kim herself did with her own financial planning business.
- [04.52] How do organisations create a culture of courage?
- [09.19] The challenge of vulnerability and the importance of courageous conversations.
- [12.21] What is the story you’re telling yourself?
- [14.00] Critics and being selective about who you take feedback from.
- [17.14] The difference between belonging and fitting in.
- [20.49] After having been through the course, Kim discusses her changed response to criticism.
- [22.50] The impact of the work on her family.
- [24.52] The importance of having a vocabulary and framework around which to have these kind of conversations.
- [27.03] Your bodies physiological response to emotions.
Learn more about Kim Potgieter
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Related posts and episodes
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- Equine-inspired leadership with Schelli Whitehouse
- Why fit in when you can belong?
- The connection challenge with Alan Samuel Cohen
- When meaning and money meet with Kim Potgieter
Quotes from this episode
- “You should be connecting with your heart and not trying to show off with your graphs” – Kim Potgieter
- “We think that we as people are thinking beings that happen to feel, but we’re feeling beings that happen to think” – Kim Potgieter
- “But if you come from a place of defensiveness, any feedback (positively intended or not) is always going to hurt” – Lisa Linfield
- “Naming it takes its power away” – Kim Potgieter
Lisa Linfield: 00:09 Hello everybody. And welcome to today’s episode of Working Women’s Wealth. I’m joined by my first repeat guest, Kim Potgieter. She was absolutely phenomenal in sharing with us some amazing insights on finding meaning in your life and money. And today she is coming to speak to us about the amazing work that she’s just done with Brené Brown in her Dare to Lead course.
So Kim, welcome. And thank you very much for joining us again.
Kim Potgieter: 00:51 Thanks, Lisa, for having me again.
Lisa Linfield: 00:54 So, Kim, what on earth made you travel across the world to go and study with Brené Brown on how to be a data lead facilitator as a financial advisor and owner of a business?
Kim Potgieter: 01:07 So I think really why I was doing it … And it was something that I’ve wanted to do for a long time. And the real reason I wanted to do it is because the work has helped me so much on my journey. And I wanted to be able to share that with people, and I needed more insights on how to do it.
So many years ago when I first started reading Brené’s book, she had online learning courses. And I did her online learning courses. And every course I did, I just felt like there was more I needed to learn and there was more I needed to learn. And I was implementing the things I was learning. And I was watching myself grow. And I was watching how I was getting braver, more courageous. And, yes, I thought by getting this qualification … I’m also an achiever by nature so I love qualifications. But I thought it gave me the credibility in order to share this work. And, yes, that’s why I found myself going to Houston, Texas and doing the Dare to Lead course.
Lisa Linfield: 02:09 So Dare to Lead is almost … I mean, it’s not, but it’s almost a culmination of the work that she’s done before now. But it’s biggest target audience, as I understand it, is about how you use all of her work within a business environment. Is that correct?
Kim Potgieter: 02:27 That’s absolutely correct. So the content comes from her books, the main one being Daring Greatly, which was the second book of hers that I’d read. The next book is Rising Strong. And the third book is Into the Wilderness. So she took these three books and when she was writing those, it was all from her research she’d been doing around shame and she’d been doing around empathy and courage. But why she was doing all of this work, there was a calling coming from industry and there was a calling coming from businesses saying, now, okay, so a lot of the people in the companies were reading these books, but how did you apply this in business? How did you apply this with leadership in mind?
And so she took all of the work and she took all her interviews that you’d done in businesses … I mean, she’d interviewed so many businesses around what is a good leader and how do you find good leaders. And as she says in a lot of her work, she looked everywhere and you don’t find many good leaders. And what was incredible is she’s put it all into a book, but she showed us in the book that actually courage and the work around daring to lead is teachable, observable, and measurable. And I think reading the book and seeing that you could actually teach people this, it also got me really excited, because I’m a learner by nature but my learning is not for myself only. I love to go and then to go and share.
So even going … And now you say, “Why as a financial planner?” I have been talking to the industry, the financial planning industry, for the last 10 years, around this concept of life planning and how people are more important than their money. You’re needing to work with people, you’re needing to understand people’s goals and dreams, and then make sure that they’re financial plan enables it. So that’s how I see financial planning. And while I’ve been doing all of that work, I’ve been encouraging planners to do it. And planners really to do it, but so many of them just don’t have the self-awareness that’s needed in order to have those conversations. You can’t have these conversations with your clients unless you’re prepared to go there as yourself.
And so, yes, there was a part of me, there’s on multiple levels that I want to share Dare to Lead with, but it was also to share it with the financial planning industry to say, “If you can do the self-awareness work on yourself, which I believe the Brené work does, you’ll be able to be so much better as a financial planner.”
Lisa Linfield: 04:52 There was a quote that she said: “Self awareness and self-love matter. Who we are is how we lead.” And I think that’s exactly what you’re saying.
Kim Potgieter: 05:03 Exactly.
Lisa Linfield: 05:04 So there is this whole concept that goes through in terms of building courage cultures in an organization. So be it a culture of courage for yourself, and then a culture of courage for your team, and then a culture of courage for your organization, and then a culture of courage with your clients. You’ve talked about it in different environments. I think of myself as having some people in my team who would have been stereotypically rough and tough, “Let’s get to work and work.” How do organizations bring through this culture of courage and try and make it, courage, being measurable and teachable and all that? Has there been a lot of resistance to it? Or how have you experienced that?
Kim Potgieter: 05:44 The first example is to use what I’ve done in my own company. So at Chartered Wealth Solutions, we closed the entire company for two days and we rolled out the Dare to Lead work. Was there resistance? Absolutely. Okay. So naturally when you tell people that they need to work on their self-awareness, and they’re in the work environment, you know, she talks around us “armoring up,” you want to watch armoring up happen. It’s as if, “Absolutely not. I’m not letting anybody in here because people are going to hurt me.” So I have been introducing it slowly. And if anybody wants to do it, an organization has to introduce it slowly. It’s a little bit of … I’ve showed her videos. She gives so much content that’s freely available, from her Ted videos to her, now, Netflix recording that she’s done, Called to Courage. So I used to show those to the company in different stages. And I think people started feeling, “Hang on, there’s something in this.”
Then in November last year, I said to … We’ve got 83 people in our company. I said, “I am going to read Dare to Lead over the holidays. Who of you want to read it over the holidays, and then going to join a group with me next year for six months and we’re going to meet regularly and we’re going to discuss the book?” And out of 83 people, 15 people put up their hand and said, Kim, we’ll join you. So I found that doing it that way was a lot better than saying to everybody, “You have to do it,” Because the minute you say to people that they have to do it, their backs come up.
So we started meeting in January. And we used to sit around the table. And online on her website there’s a read-a-thon that goes with a book with a whole lot of exercises in it. So we’d all read the book of the holidays, and we used to do the exercise, and we discussed it in the context of Chartered. And we finished the whole book like that.
And then also what had happened is in March I’d gone on the course. I came back with all this video content, the actual course material, and we worked through all of that. Then when we were already. The 15 people launched it to the company. The people in the company watched how we changed our conversations. And we were giving each other much more feedback. Clear is kind. We weren’t talking about people; we were talking to them. They watched it all happening so they all wanted to be part of it. Then we found we could still roll it out to the company. And just as an encouraging note, at the end of doing it, one person put up their hand after the two-day; the least likely person put up their hand and said, “Kim, you’ve done this for us now, but what about our families? How do we now go home with this knowledge and not be able to share it with our families?” So we’ve put in a day and next year where I’m actually going to be rolling it out and letting staff bring their families.
And then also the other day we had our Plan a Getaway. Out of 22 planners, when we went around and spoke around our highlight of the year, and what we found the most beneficial, they said it was during the Dare to Lead work.
So slowly persevere with it, if you firmly believe in it. Again, don’t try and tell people to do work that you’re not prepared to do yourself. People can smell it immediately. So that’s just how I’ve rolled it out in an organization, and had the most incredible feedback. And it’s early days. Because this is not one of those courses that you can do, “Oh yeah, we’re quickly going to do this course, tick it off.” This is a way of your culture. It’s a way of who you are. And, yeah, the journey’s just begun.
Lisa Linfield: 09:19 So one of the challenges that many people might have would be this whole concept of being vulnerable. For me, if I think back of myself, particularly in corporate and particularly in leadership, being armored up was the easiest way to cope with half the stuff that went on. And I definitely think that I would have, in my corporate life, subscribed to the view that if you be vulnerable, you get taken off. I might not go as far as to say vulnerability is weak, but vulnerability exposes yourself to have your heart trampled on. What would you say to that?
Kim Potgieter: 09:52 So I would say that you’re not alone. The majority of us have felt like that. But what I realized when speaking to people, being so armored up and actually dressing up so that the world likes us or we fit into the world, who’s the one person that we’re disappointing? And it turns out that it’s ourselves. So when we feel every day that we’re out there pleasing the world, but we’re not been authentically who we are, unfortunately we’re the ones that are living with being a disappointment to ourselves. So we engage in behavior … We’ve chatted about it often, you and I, around perfectionism, over pleasing, perhaps a bit of numbing through alcohol, drugs, watching too much TV. So that’s the result. And I think with Brené, and when I watched her 2010 … It was a Ted video then. And watching it and saying, “Well why are we in the state we’re in. Why are so many people having to take antidepressants, on drugs, doing all of these things if what we’re doing is working? So hang on, let’s just re-look at it.”
And that’s where the vulnerability comes into it. Let’s just re-look at it. And most of us are taught that vulnerability is weakness. I was taught it. You were taught it. Let’s not let people in in too much because if we let people into much, we might potentially been hurt. But we have been hurting ourselves. So it’s kind of to re-look … And that’s what a lot of the work is, is re-looking at actually what vulnerability is. And it’s not oversharing. And it’s not telling people our deepest, darkest secrets. What it is, is just being able to connect on an emotional level and to reconnect emotionally with people instead of this … How could I say it? We think that we, as people, are thinking beings that happen to feel. But we’re feeling beings that happen to think. And relearning how to connect with people on an emotional level, it just makes your engagements, it makes your day, it makes your life so much more fulfilled.
Lisa Linfield: 11:54 I think it does, but I do think it’s a thing that takes practice. Because … Let me at least speak for myself. I find that when I’m feeling good and strong, it’s actually okay to drop armor and do all of that. But when I’m tired, and when I’m in a bad space and I’m feeling sore, then it actually ends up being a real challenge to be vulnerable. It’s much easier just to flip into kind of “transactional,” than vulnerable.
Kim Potgieter: 12:21 And it comes down to … And it’s Brené’s concept where she talks about … She calls it the Story in our Head, or The Story I’m Telling Myself. And most of us spend so much time in our head thinking and making up stories. So our brain loves a story, whether it’s true or not true. So when we are tired, or when we’re in that position that you’re talking about, we are at a stage where actually we start making up this biggest lot of rubbish of what other people are thinking about us, how their perceiving us. We make it all up. And then it becomes like a drama story. And then we’re living it. And if we turned around and actually asked the person, they weren’t even thinking about us because they were thinking about themselves. None of what we’re thinking about is even reality.
So what I love about this work is it stops you. So when you’re in that situation, just to actually stop yourself and say, “Hang on, what is going on here?” She calls it a shame shit storm. Are you going through this whole storm in your head that’s not even true because you’re feeling shamed for that moment? And then you do this terrible behavior. So it’s actually stopping yourself, like if you’re in a meeting, getting up and leaving the room. If you with your children and you’re about to really behave badly, rather get up and go for a walk somewhere or have a bath.
So I’ve found it doesn’t at all take it away. But when it’s happening I’m a lot more conscious of the fact actually now that I’m just going through a place that I’m feeling complete shame, and I need to be looking at, “Is this true or is this just one of my made up stories that I’ve got going?”
Lisa Linfield: 14:00 So one of the concepts that I love in Brené Brown is the whole concept on critics. I know personally, in terms of your reference of The Story I’m Telling Myself, the story I’m telling myself is the whole world out there is criticizing me. And there is no greater critic than me. But I love the poem that she introduces in Daring Greatly on this whole concept from Theodore Roosevelt of the man in the arena. Tell us a little bit about that and what your thoughts are on it.
Kim Potgieter: 14:33 Okay, so I have it laminated. It’s in my office. It’s in my home. Because it’s been something that I’ve used as part of being able to come into the financial planning industry and talk to people and planners and say to them that you should be connecting with your heart and you shouldn’t be trying to show off with your graphs. And many times when I’ve been in this, and she calls it this arena of doing this work, I have been criticized by a number of people. So, yes, I agree with you, Lisa. There’s a critic. That’s you. But then there’s also these critics all around you. And what she shares with us, and how it changed her life, changed my life, and changed thousands of other people’s lives, is when you go into that arena, know that you are going to be criticized but be careful who you’re taking feedback from. Are they sitting in the cheap seats? And if they’re sitting in the cheap seats, that means that they’re not in the arena themselves. Or are there actually people’s opinions who count? Because if we go out there and we’re trying to do everything for everybody and please everybody, we’re never going to do anything. If we care about what nobody thinks, we’re also not being vulnerable at all because we’re not doing what we should be doing. So there’s a balance between caring, but then caring whose opinions really matter to you.
And then on that in the arena, once you’re in that arena and you’re doing this good work, or you’re doing this courageous work, you’re going to fall. You are going to fall; be prepared for it before you even start. But the important part that she shares, and what the quote shares, is, “Know how to rise up, get up, and go back in. Don’t go now and retreat away. Go back in.” And that’s where we can really make a big difference in the world, when we’re happy to go into the arena. When we’ve got a reason that we’re going in and we changing lives, and we’re making a difference in people’s lives, and our voice is coming out as opposed to our voice staying inside ourselves.
Lisa Linfield: 16:32 So one of the questions I often think about is when I look at my own story and I think to myself, “I wonder how much more I would have achieved in life if I worried less about what everybody in the cheap seats thought, if I had have put myself out there more and if I had have done it.” And now that I am more aware of her work, and more aware of this concept of not trying to please everybody but, as you say, be mindful of the people who are in the arena with me, If anybody who is trying to do the work, whatever the work is, offers me feedback, it’s gold. And then what I’m trying to do is sift out all those people in the cheap seats who are throwing their two cents at every second opportunity.
Another concept of hers that has also struck me enormously is this difference between belonging and fitting in. And she talks about it in her work in terms of the sense of … And again in the Netflix film on how they are, in actual fact, opposites of each other. Whereas I guess, in my thinking, I had never really thought enough about the concept of “When am I fitting in?” and “When am I belonging?” And for her it comes again to this fundamental thing of you first have to belong to yourself. How has concept come through in your work, in terms of giving people permission to belong to themselves and find the self-authenticity first, and be cognizant of when they’re fitting in and when they’re not, when they actually belonging?
Kim Potgieter: 18:02 So my first one there is very much for myself. When I came into this industry and I wanted to have these different kinds of conversations, if I had fitted in, I would have come in and tried to look like everybody else. And I would have made myself look like them, but then I wouldn’t have done the work that I needed to do. So I needed to belong, first of all, in believing that what I was talking about and what I was spreading was one of my core beliefs or core values. So I had to become clear on my values. And Brené talks a lot around sifting through your values until you have two values that you know are your guiding light. So when I know that I’m living true to my values, for me it’s when I’m belonging. When I am fitting in, it’s generally when I’m trying to make sure that I’m liked or that people are pleased with me. So that’s how I worked it. So it became quite a thing where I was checking in with myself, “Am I living true to my values? If I’m living true to my values, I belong.” But when I was trying to please everybody around me, I was fitting in. So that’s for me how I worked with the work.
But one exercise that’s really helpful, the Values Exercise is a hugely helpful one in working through those values and it’s quite a lot of time and effort to put into, to come down to just two values that are your guiding light. And that next one is, it’s an exercise called the Square Squad. And the Square Squad is a little tiny square that you’ve got where you write the names down of the people’s opinions who really matter to you, so that when you’re in a situation and when you’re going through something, those are the people who you contact, who support you and love you through what you’re going through.
And they’re not the people that are going to turn around and say to you, “Lisa, everything you’re saying is absolutely correct.” They’re the people that are going to understand your values. They’re going to understand what you’re trying to achieve. And they might actually say to you, “I’m not quite sure that that kind of behavior potentially fits in with what you’re trying to achieve or your integrity.” They are your Square Squad people whose opinions matter, and that you can often go and check in with. And they might also be the people that turn around to you and say, “Lisa, I think you’re being incredibly harsh with yourself. What about some self-compassion?”
And so that’s really helped me, knowing who those people are. And when I’m going through something to be able to pick up the phone, or meet them for a coffee, and just go through it with them.
Lisa Linfield: 20:49 Being more conscious of whose opinions you should take and whose opinions you shouldn’t, do you still find yourself getting as upset with people’s comments, or has it kind of sifted through? Or do you sometimes lose sight of it all, when a critic steps off it still affects you?
Kim Potgieter: 21:06 So again, I think a lot of this work and doing it, it’s practice, so absolutely doesn’t come straight away. But what I have found is that it’s less now because actually … I mean, I really am quite proud to be in that arena and I don’t want to be one of the people sitting out of the arena hurling opinions. I want to be one of those people that are out there making a difference in the world, and it’s incredibly important to me to be doing it. Do I have days where I’m absolutely rattled by certain things? Completely.
I mean, the big trigger for me often is my children. So it comes from the weirdest places but, potentially, if my children say that I haven’t been around, that they’ve needed me and I was off speaking or running a course, that feeling comes back fully. And, yeah, it’s then being human and saying, “Yes, I’m not perfect. I’m imperfect,” and accept that and I can still love myself through it. And then it’s turning around and actually saying thank you for the feedback, as opposed to …. Before, I didn’t feel very open to feedback because if anybody tried to give me feedback, it really felt like they were criticizing me. And now I’m seeing feedback in a much lighter way and in a growth way.
Lisa Linfield: 22:29 And that requires you to be strong in yourself. I think part of it is to know that this is a journey and all feedback makes you better. When coming from your Square Squad and the people that are important to you, it does make you a better human being. But if you come from a place of defensiveness, any feedback positively intended or not is always going to hurt.
How has this work impacted your family?
Kim Potgieter: 22:53 So when you ask that, I have a 26-year-old son, an 18-year-old son, and a 13-year-old daughter, and my husband, so I’ve really got to practice it on my family.
So in the beginning, again, like I said, I shared it at Chartered, I tried to do it in a subtle way of just giving them little bits, little bits. Then obviously with the Netflix recording, it was great to be able to sit with my whole family and we could all watch it together. And we could hear about the stories in each other’s heads, and we could see the stuff that were going on.
And the other day my son had to write an essay now in matric. The 18-year-old, he had to write a story, or an essay, and when he wrote it, he wrote about what it’s like to be moving away and going to university and what it feels like. And he wrote that the things that he’s taking with him are that he needs to stay true to his values, and as long as he goes to vastly knowing what his values are, he should stay on the right course. And then he shared in there that he needed to be courageous because this is a very new thing, coming from this protected home environment where he’s really been nurtured and loved. And now he’s off to go and stay in a res, where he’s not going to necessarily be getting that. And then he shared that it was all right because his other friend was also going to be there, and they’d already agreed to be each other’s Square Squad people to be able to have these kinds of conversations.
Lisa Linfield: 24:12 Wow.
Kim Potgieter: 24:13 Exactly, wow.
Lisa Linfield: 24:14 A teenage boy.
Kim Potgieter: 24:15 Yeah, my 18-year-old son. And even with Gabby, my daughter, when she comes home, she says, “Mum, my English teacher’s got Dare to Lead, and I told her you’re doing this work.” So it’s just sharing it with them. And a lot of the work I do is always around, have these courageous conversations, have these kinds of conversations with your children. Because when I read the stats of depression and antidepressants for children, it breaks my heart. And I realize that a lot of the times it’s happening because conversations aren’t happening, and children are feeling alone. And back to what you touched on earlier, putting in and belonging.
And I think also, one of the things that I’ve always felt helpful in life is to have a vocabulary and a framework around which to have some of these more difficult conversations. If you’re a 17-year-old or 18-year-old boy going away, if you’ve never been given a vocabulary around how to express issues of courage, and Square Squad, and all of that kind of stuff, how do you actually learn how to sort out and sift through the world and these vast array of emotions that all of us have, but yet we never actually name or discuss at any point? You’d have to have antidepressants to deal with it.
So if you look at just emotions. Most of us are so not in touch with our emotions because we’ve been taught so much that we shouldn’t be crying. So Brené shares that we have about 40 emotions that we feel, and the average person can name three: mad, glad, sad. So we’ve lost vocabulary to even say how we’re feeling. So not only do we not have the conversations but even internally with ourselves, as we start feeling them, we think, “I can’t feel that. I’d better get rid of that feeling because that’s weakness and I mustn’t be weak.” So the fact of just discussing that you have emotions and it’s normal, with your children, for me, is a lot of the battle.
And then with the Brené work, and what she’s been so clever with, is she’s just put words to the way we’re all feeling. And when I run these courses, and the “aha” moments in the audience, “No, that’s me. That’s me. That’s me,” it feels like she’s talking just to us. But it’s because we all going through the same stuff in our head but we just haven’t, first of all, spoken about it and we haven’t known how to put words to it. So here are real words. When she says … The one that I love is “Have a rumble.” Now what a rumble is, it can be with yourself or with somebody else, it’s a real discussion. It’s clear is kind. It’s saying what’s really going on, and not what you think that other person wants to be hearing.
Lisa Linfield: 26:53 Yeah. And we can say things that we want ourselves to hear. I mean, as you say, it can be with yourself or with someone else. It’s just that deep honesty and trying to put words to it.
I also love her sense of describing where you feel. I think so many of us have lost connection with our body when it’s telling you something. And she talks about where she feels shame. For me it’s the sense at the top of my stomach, bottom of my chest bone, of like an elephant sitting on top of me. I don’t think I’d ever really thought about that until I read her work and thought, “Okay, where do I feel it? When do I know that this thing’s coming along?” Because as she said, you can feel it in your body. And you can when you’re conscious about it, when someone shines a light on it.
Kim Potgieter: 27:33 So physiologically, we go into certain situations. And when we feel shame, exactly the same things happen in our body that would happen when we were hurt or where there was pain. So we stub our toe, or we’re in an accident, and certain things happen to our bodies. It’s the same that happens with shame, but we’re so not aware of shame. As you’re saying, it’s just absolute awareness. So for instance, you’ll go into certain circumstances and your mouth will go dry and you’ll start getting hot in your throat. Yet for most of us, we’re not even aware of it. We don’t even realize it’s happening. And then what happens is when we’re feeling that our behavior changes, and then we potentially say things that we later regret saying. But if we realize at the time, as you’re saying exactly, we were in touch with our body and what was happening, we’d be able to acknowledge it. Naming it takes its power away. So because we keep all of this inside, we give huge power to feeling shame and some of these emotions; whereas if we actually had to say to somebody, “I am feeling whatever it may be,” all of a sudden it’s not so powerful anymore.
Lisa Linfield: 28:40 Absolutely. Someone once said to me, “An elephant in your head is a mouse on the table.” And it comes down to that.
So, Kim, how do people learn more about the work that you do and get to see the stuff that you’re doing at the moment?
Kim Potgieter: 28:52 So, obviously, I do this work with my clients. So when clients come to plan their retirements, this has become a big part of our conversation. Because people are going through it, so it’s part of my process.
I also run Dare to Lead workshops for people. And I have a blog called Courageous Currency Conversations, which people can subscribe to. And in that I talk through a lot of these concepts. So my website, kimpotgieter.co.za, has the blogs on, it has the details of the courses, and it has details on how to contact me if they wanted to come through the process of retirement planning with me.
Lisa Linfield: 29:31 Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us, Kim. I appreciate your time.
Kim Potgieter: 29:35 Thank you for having me.
Lisa Linfield: 29:37 That was Kim Potgieter. And I really admire her for going all way to America to train as a certified data lead facilitator. She truly has opened my heart and mind to Brené Brown’s work. And I really suggest that you go and read up any of the books from Brené Brown, or follow her on her website because there are some amazing resources there. Please head over to workingwomenswealth.com and sign up for our newsletter. I’d really love to get to know you better and share my learnings, as we journey together, not only from my own perspective, but also from the amazing guests that I get to interview like Kim.
Take care and have a great week.